So here it is. A first attempt. We’ll see how it goes.
Should I lay some groundwork? I’m not going to get my feelings hurt. Disagreeing, different points of view, new ideas, I’m all for all of them. If you don’t like a book, I’d love to hear why. So don’t be shy! We can disagree and be nice, right?!
I’m not exactly sure how to approach the post, so I’ll just try this first off. Thoughts. Questions. Ponderings. Feedback on format is appreciated, too.
Snow Flower and the Secret Fan by Lisa See. A friend handed it off to me. A friend who knows my leeriness regarding contemporary authors. (Thankfully, I have several friends working to remedy that in me.)
One thing that struck me about this book is how I related to it. I have no experience with the culture of China in the 1800s. I’ve never had my feet bound. I’ve never been viewed as a worthless branch of a family tree. But I have been a friend. I’ve had friends. There are experiences of women that transcend culture. Friendship is one of them.
The foot binding was a tough thing to read. I haven’t read a lot of feminist theory or writing, but I’m sure there are lots of ideas about foot binding and the message it sent to women in a culture. Maybe I was just responding to the act with my western sensibilities, but I felt like that message of visible bondage of women that foot binding implied was evident in a lot of the book. The picture, as Lily was fleeing with Snow Flower and her husband, of the men carrying their mothers, pushing their wives in carts. Women who are unable to even leave their homes without assistance. Women who's bones break after walking too far. Women who die because they lose their balance walking down a mountain. Talk about a literal manifestation of forced submission. What were your thoughts about the foot binding? Both the practice literally as it was described in the book and the metaphor? The act of “mother love” that the women called upon to inflict disfiguration upon their daughters?
How about the value women possessed as opposed with their responsibility? Over and over again, women, daughters, are talked about as nothing. Their only value being in the sons they can produce. And then the amazing amount of cultural responsibility they bore for the actual bearing of children. If they didn’t have sons, if the sons were weak, if they miscarried, if they couldn’t have children, it’s all their fault. They’ve done something wrong. The fate of the family lies in the wombs of these “worthless” daughters. There are rules dictating how they should conceive and when, rules for what they should eat and do and even think while with child, and then rules for grieving. It kept striking me the amount of credit and/or blame the women got while at the same time being completely devalued as human beings.
The changing of fate. Another theme that came up again and again. Can fate be changed? The answers varied. Lily herself told Snow Flower that they could change the fate of Snow Flower’s daughter, just as Lily had “changed her own fate.” (Only, Lily didn’t really have anything to do with it, did she? She didn’t make her feet what they were. And her feet are the things that changed her life.) Madame Wang works hard to change Snow Flower’s fate and then resigns herself to saying that fate cannot be changed. Lily, at the end of her life, says, “…nor can you change another person’s destiny.” But didn’t she? Didn’t she change the destiny of Snow Flower’s son? And her granddaughter? Is it even necessary to change a destiny? Didn’t Lily change the lives of the women whose autobiographies she wrote? She says, “I wanted them to place a value on their lives, which for the most part were dismal.” Is giving value to a person’s life as important as changing her destiny?
Here’s an old English teacher question for you…does the fact that Lily is the narrator change our perception of the events? The fact that she’s eighty years old, looking back at her life? Does she romanticize memories? Remember herself as more of a villain than she was? Is her telling painted over by the grief and regret she’s borne for forty plus years? Does it even matter? This is one of those that probably either intrigues you or annoys you. What about her background? Her feeling that she was never loved for who she was? How does that play a part in who she becomes?
Lily seems to be at a loss for helping Snow Flower deal with her emotional turmoil. Her grief. Her sadness. Her shame. It seems like Lily wants to help Snow Flower, but she keeps falling back to the rules. To the cultural laws. Is it because she’s cruel? She can’t empathize? Or is it easier? Is legalism a safe place? Black and white are so much neater than the mess of gray?
OK, maybe I’ve asked too many questions. Maybe I’ve written too much. But I can’t wait to hear what you think. About all of it.
Woohoo! Shoulder roll, knuckle crack, here we go...
ReplyDeleteFootbinding. I cried during that part. I can't even imagine doing this to my girls. On the other hand, if as a mother didn't do this, you were sealing your daughter's fate as growing up to be even more reviled, spit upon, taken advantage of - she would be truly "worthless." It would be like letting her walk around without an abayah or burqa in some Middle Eastern societies. From where we sit, this practice is cruel and subhuman, but how could you, as a woman with no position in society, rise up and rebel and change this? What would be a worse fate for your daughter? I try to remind myself of that whenever my stomach turns at a cultural practice I find reviling. Of course, there is a whole lot to say about male oppression and patriarchy here, but I'll let someone else take the feminist reins on that one:)
Fate and destiny are interesting concepts. I think this is actually something See intentionally played with because of its overwhelming cultural significance. Everyone supposedly bowed to Fate, but worked furiously behind the scenes to change it.
The point of view was the most genius thing about the book, in my opinion. It's what makes it so powerful. We can't know anyone else's perspective in the book, just as in life we can't really get in anyone else's head but our own. It's what's so tormenting about the story. It's what's so tormenting about our own failures in relationships. Our mistakes are made from the inability to perfectly perceive another's situation, or perfectly respond. It's heartbreaking because we try so hard, like Lily. She's more brutal on herself than necessary - but I am my own tormenter too.
I can't get out of my own head a colossal friendship failure of mine that causes me to identify with Lily. Like Lily, part of the problem was my own weakness, naivety, etc. Another was that the gulf between us was too wide to really bridge. Natural destiny would have never made us friends; it was manipulated destiny that tried. I agonize over the hurt I caused; I have played the scenario a hundred ways and none of the solutions really work. So I have a question too: did Lily and Snow Flower really ever have a chance, or was this just like an ill-fated "for better for worse" arranged marriage that they tried, in their need for a real friend, to find one in the only person provided?
I could say so much more, but I will sign off by saying - fantastic questions, Amanda!
Tiff, I cried during the foot binding part, too. I think, the first time I read it, I just kept thinking, "Why? Why?" Your point about the alternative really made the "mother love" resonate with me. Seriously, if they didn't do it to their daughters, their fate is worse. Again, it's hard to not let my western cultural ideas make me judge harshly.
ReplyDeleteI like the way you put that about fate, everybody bowing to it but working furiously to change it.
I don't know how the perspective of the narrator escaped me the first time I read it. Why it didn't dawn on me that eighty year old Lily is telling this story. And, I too, like Lily, am probably harder on myself than anyone else.
I was thinking about what you had mentioned about how the book was kind of cathartic regarding your friendship in the past, and I imagined that you would have identified more with Snow Flower. Being in the position of doing something that was misunderstood by a friend and reaping the consequences of her hurt and anger. It made me think of Snow Flower's perspective a bit more and imagine what her autobiography would look like.
I loved your question too, Tiff. It's interesting how that relationship between Lily and Snow Flower seemed to flip-flop. First, the relationship was sold as being fortuitous for Lily. Snow Flower being from an educated family. Of course, we know that was part of Madame Wang's plan. So, when it flops to Snow Flower having hitched her future to Lily, it changes things a bit. And you're right. Once we know everything, we can see that this is a relationship that wouldn't work out. It's not hard to understand why Lily's MIL didn't want her to have anything to do with Snow Flower. Culturally, she was not acceptable. Did Snow Flower's attachment to Lily really change her fate? Would she have married lower than a butcher without a laotong relationship?
I think it's definitely true that Lily took acceptance where she could get it. And I think Snow Flower did love Lily. But I think the relationship was made with short-term consequences in mind and not long term. Madame Wang, having all the facts, had to know that the two girls would have issues with continuing their relationships after marriage. But her primary concern was for Snow Flower.
I feel like I haven't really arrived at a solid answer for your question, but I had fun thinking it out!
And, thanks Tiff, for the encouragement!
I agree with Tiffany, fantastic questions, Amanda.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure how to answer many of them, but I do know that this book was quite thought provoking to me.
I think it's difficult not to read about such cultural norms and wonder which current mores we are subject to that cause pain and anguish as well as submission and future consequences. Today's present day foot-bindings include botox, anorexia nervosa, high-heels, spanx, hair extensions, eyebrow plucking, etc. Those these are not equal - or equally significant, I do think they should cause a pause in the normalcy to which we label them.
I am also drawn to this idea that a person's life, fate, whatever you call it, can be changed by one person. In Snow Flower's case, her father's indiscretions caused not only his demise, but all of those in his household. And, of course Lily's successful foot binding changed the fate of nearly her entire family.
A final theme that I have gleaned wisdom from is the distinct role of long-term relationships one one's life. I am blessed to have three long-term friendships that supply me with more than my share of laotong-esk bonding. I can only praise God for such a blessing in a life that should have otherwise ended flat-footed.
I didn't even recognize that: that Snow Flower's father single-handedly changed her fate. Really interesting. Thanks for pointing that out, C!
ReplyDeleteAs I cringed while reading about and thinking about the foot-binding, I did have that voice in my head thinking that cultural context had to be considered. And, that there are things in our culture we consider beautiful that are awful in the eyes of other cultures.
That last sentence was beautiful, too! Thanks for jumping in, C!
You guys write soooo well. I really loved the book and just skimmed comments 3 and 4.
ReplyDeleteIt's the first book I read in 3 days in a long time. My children were neglected. They were fed and clothed, but otherwise neglected.
I wanted so badly to read Snow Flower's side of the story. I felt so lost, not knowing what was really going on in her home. When we found out that she was ill, and Lily came to see her, I was crushed and saddened beyond belief. Like Tiff, I started to look into my own life for relationships that I have failed in. For friendships that I have crushed. For friends that I have hurt.
I'm sorry, I may never have time to truly input, especially as elequent as you women. But thank you for the thought provoking questions. They make the book even more beatiful...
What's next?
c- beatiful comments... I agree and I thought of you all while reading. We have an amazing relationship that spans many miles and lots of time. Lots of love to my beautiful friends in three different states.
ReplyDeleteI also wanted to add that during the reading of this book I, out of curiosity, looked up foot binding. I for some reason needed to see for myself the torture that was endured to fully appreciate the images and feelings the author was describing. The images were, of course, beyond comprehension. But something that struck me beyond that was one commentary that noted that as the foot-binding "era" was coming to an end and the agrarian society was emerging there was a shift in cultural norms around this process. Now, the women who were already bound were seen as useless and of no worth and the women who were flat-footed were seen as superior. What a horrible gap for an entire generation! Though I'm certainly happy this practice has come to an end, why is it that suffering needed to be heaped on twice?
ReplyDeleteI can think of other moments in history where this twice-affliction has happened: when the slaves were sometimes forced to fight in the war against their own cause; when refugees flee a war-torn country to another and then are treated with malice; when a man or woman are rehabilitated in prison only to find themselves ostracized by the "free" people they longed to be. Can you think of others?
Are there areas today where we are making some pay twice?
Carly, think of the values you're imparting to your children about the importance of reading! :) That's what I always tell myself when I'm not feeding them and reading instead.
ReplyDeleteCourtney, great observation and thought and outside research! I have never really considered that much. That idea of a lost generation when norms are changing and a group of people are left behind or out. Did you have some ideas of modern day examples?
Hello Ladies--Sorry I'm late to the game, but I really enjoyed the book and wanted to include my two cents.
ReplyDeleteA quotation that I came across that might be interesting to talk about in connection with the foot binding is, "It is in shared pain, not shared joy, that we find identity." Obviously, not all pain is as painful as the practice of foot-binding, but I wonder if in a world where women had no voice, joining in this age-old practice gave women a purpose, however awful. The preference of having the "proper" mutation of the foot, as opposed to the sister (?) whose feet were just mangled is such a disgusting thought.
I cannot imagine what it must have been like to be a woman during that time period, but I can relate to wanting to be accepted, to have an identity, to feel a bond with other women. Things have gotten better for women since the 1800s, but I think it is still evident that women will do things detrimental to themselves in order to be accepted by society.
Hi Annie! This is Amanda's discussion to facilitate, but I just wanted to thank you for sharing your insight. I think you've struck some gold. Even when we have some voice, humans do bond through the identity of shared pain (think of the way women cannot resist chiming in with their pregnancy/birthing war stories!) We even create it. (Hazing, for instance).
ReplyDeleteI'd like to build on that and what Courtney said(by the way - Courtney's suggestion of seeing for yourself what a bound foot looked like - a great way to understand this even better). Because beauty is one of the few bargaining chips women possess in society, defined often times by men, we desperately seek to attain the ideal. Some, like high cheekbones, are kind of up to nature. Others, like smooth hairless skin, can be attained by following steps of regimens. When women deliberately try to throw off these burdens (such as the second wave feminists who refused to shave or dye their hair or wear high heels or bras) they are severely sanctioned or ridiculed and deemed unattractive. I propose that it is VERY DIFFICULT for a woman to withstand being called unattractive, especially when there is something she can do about it. The bars of this prison might be stronger than any other, but if we ever learn to break out of them, imagine the freedom.
If anyone is intrigued by the women Courtney mentioned who are doubly penalized and caught between the footbinding and non-footbinding eras, there is a fantastic book by a Chinese author who incorporates this into his story. "Waiting" by Ha Jin.
Annie, it's so good to have you join us! :)
ReplyDeleteThat idea of the women in a society where they lacked a voice being bonded through their pain and then, Tiff how you connected it with the ideal of beauty were thought provoking for me. I'm trying to think back to the characters in the book. When Snow Flower's feet turned out so well, it did seem as if all the female characters in the book were genuinely happy for her. There didn't seem to be any kind of resentment or jealousy. (Again though, we just have to take Snow Flower's word for that.) I'm sure, however, not all the women in her village or in her husband's village felt the same.
As to beauty today, it's not a new thought, but worth noting that those who reject the regimens of beauty aren't just sanctioned or ridiculed by men but also by women. We've talked about it here before. How we, as women, can be each other's worst enemies.
This has been fun. I hope you've thought so as well! (I'm not officially closing the discussion or anything. Just wanted to let you all know that I've enjoyed this!)